Be Bold, Make Waves with Laura Kåmark

[Flashback Favorite] Creating Conversational Copy that Converts with Nicole Kepic

• Laura Kåmark • Episode 58

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Meet Nicole:

Nicole is a conversion copywriter who specializes in sales pages, email sequences, and website copy. She serves coaches and creatives – helping them stand out from the crowd, attract their ideal clients, and sell out their signature offers. 

When she’s not on her laptop, she’s usually spending time with family, devouring a suspense novel, or re-watching an old episode of The Office. 


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Laura Kåmark [00:00:00]:

Hey everyone, as we get into the holiday season, I know for me it's a time where I slow down in my business. I unplug and spend more time with family. I thought this quieter time would be a really great time to rerelease some of our most popular episodes on the podcast, and I've hand selected these episodes not just because they're the most popular, but also I wanted to pick some that I thought would be really good for this season as we close out 2023 and start thinking about 2024 and moving into what is to come next year. So I hope you enjoy these rewind and relisten episodes. Also, if you're interested in being a guest on the Be bold Make waves podcast, go to lauracomwork.com guest all right, let's sit back and enjoy. Hey everyone, welcome to the Be Bold Make Waves podcast, a show bringing you inspiring stories of women who are growing and scaling their business. I'm your host, Laura Kamark, a website and tech integration specialist who works with online business owners who love their work and not their website. Join me as we have incredible conversations about business mindset, productivity, and of course, the website and tech behind the business.

Laura Kåmark [00:01:28]:

Let's go ahead and dive in to this week's episode. Welcome to the show. Today I am so excited to introduce you all to my very close friend, Nicole Kepic. Nicole is a conversion copywriter who specializes in sales pages, email sequences and website copy. She serves coaches and creatives, helping them stand out from the crowd, attract their ideal clients, and sell out their signature offers. And I've known Nicole since, I think it was in 2020. We met near the end of 2020 and we had joined a program together and ended up, it was a coaching program that we got paired off together. There was four of us put in a group and so we really got to get to know each other.

Laura Kåmark [00:02:12]:

We had twice a month calls, I think, and we have an ongoing chat. And so I've just loved watching your business bloom over these last couple of years and just have such an amazing friendship with you that I cherish so much. So I'm so excited to share you with my audience and introduce more people to you because I think everyone needs to be in your world.

Nicole Kepic [00:02:35]:

Oh, thank you. I feel the same about you. And it was so random how we got put together right in that small group. And I remember those first couple of calls where we were just basically strangers, and it was a bit awkward at first, just introducing ourselves and who we were and what we did. And then it slowly, well, probably pretty quickly grew into such close friendships.

Laura Kåmark [00:02:56]:

Yeah. Which was amazing. And we actually even got to meet in person, which is so amazing. I have not done a whole lot of in person events, and in November of 2021, there was ten of us who all got together for an in person retreat, which was just so amazing to be able to connect in real life, hug each other in person and sit around for like four days and eat cheese and drink wine and mastermind and talk about our businesses and all the things.

Nicole Kepic [00:03:24]:

Yeah, it was so great. And it was like, I remember we were talking about how it should have been awkward, but it wasn't because we felt like we already knew each other so well. And then when we met in person. Yeah, it just felt like we had been friends for years. Yeah, pretty awesome.

Laura Kåmark [00:03:38]:

So I would love for you to tell the audience a little more about, can we kind of go back and talk about how you started your business, when you started your business, and what kind of led you to leave the corporate world and come into the online space and grace us with your words?

Nicole Kepic [00:03:54]:

Grace us with our words. Yeah. I mean, sometimes it's hard to answer that question when I started my business, because technically it was like twelve years ago when I started freelancing on the side, because I was already a copywriter in the nine to five world. I went to school for journalism. I was working at a design studio as a copywriter, senior copywriter, and then on the side, I had started writing for my own clients, kind of by accident, but a bit on purpose. But it was just like one or two clients that always came back to me. It was just kind of like extra trip money or something to do because they didn't have a copywriter on staff. So that was like twelve years ago.

Nicole Kepic [00:04:32]:

So I guess it technically was my own business, but the way I run my business now, being full time in it is completely different than when it was just kind of like, oh, for extra money and something I did here and there, whereas now it's like, okay, I don't have a steady paycheck or anything, so I have to go all in. Yeah. So that was about twelve years ago where I started freelancing. And then I did that for a while, obviously. And I scaled back a bit on my nine to five. I scaled down to three days a week. And then I scaled up with my freelance business. So I started taking more clients, and then the freelance business just got to be busier and busier.

Nicole Kepic [00:05:13]:

And then I started thinking more like, this could be a full time thing. Like, why am I still doing both. I need to choose one. And that's what I eventually did. And there were a few roadblocks in the way. Like, I wanted to leave corporate sooner than I did, but life gets in the way. And looking back now, I'm like, okay, this was the right time. When I did leave it.

Nicole Kepic [00:05:34]:

Sometimes I wish it was earlier, but.

Laura Kåmark [00:05:36]:

No, it was the right time. And so when did you actually make that transition from you turned in notice and you had your final day?

Nicole Kepic [00:05:43]:

It was about a year and a half ago. So it was December. What year was that? Yeah, so last year, 2021 was my first year full time in my business where I didn't have any other income sources. I was all in, in my business. So, yeah, I felt like a newbie all of a sudden, like I was starting from scratch. But meanwhile, I'd been copywriting for 20 years. But everything about it was so different than the nine to five and even the freelancing on the side, because like I said, this was all in. So, yeah, totally different.

Laura Kåmark [00:06:17]:

How did you find those first clients? Like, when you first went out on your own, obviously, I'm going to say you had previous clients you were still working with. But how did. You're on your own, it's January 1 and you're like, okay, let's.

Nicole Kepic [00:06:33]:

Those first clients. I thought you meant back when I started freelancing. Back when I started freelancing, I had worked in the fitness industry for seven and a half years writing for the fitness industry. So then my first freelance clients were people at other fitness companies, so they knew that I had that experience working for this big mecca fitness company. And they were like, yeah, we want her on our team too, to do some writing for us. So that was back in the day. But then in terms of the clients I had when I first started last year, honestly, many of them came from that group that we were in, the day rate group, just the connections that were built there. And then I started advertising more on Instagram.

Nicole Kepic [00:07:14]:

And I remember at first thinking, this is not working for me. I am hearing crickets. But somewhere along the line, I started getting more clients from Instagram. And then, of course, referrals are always good. Like, many of my clients come from referrals. So, yeah, I can't remember where I got that first. I mean, in the beginning, I was still mostly serving freelance clients from my previous life, but then it kind of, over time changed where I did less for those clients and then more for newer clients.

Laura Kåmark [00:07:46]:

And can we talk a little bit about the day rate model because you exclusively work on day rates now, is that correct? Can you explain to our audience a little about how that works?

Nicole Kepic [00:07:57]:

Yeah, my services are essentially the same. I'm still writing website copy, sales page copy, email copy. What I'm writing hasn't changed. It's just more of the format. So before, I wasn't doing day rates, so I was taking on multiple clients at a time, and sometimes the projects would overlap or take a few weeks, or I'd get all the changes at once from multiple clients. It was just harder to manage my schedule. And now that I say this, too, I think I probably was advertising a lot more services than I do now, because back in the marketing world, I was also writing video scripts and campaigns and brochures, like print posters and brochures. I was writing all the things.

Nicole Kepic [00:08:42]:

So I think when I started with my own business, I advertised all the things on my website. And so if you went there, it would have been like, oh, wow, she can do like 100 different services. I'm confused. I'm just going to leave this site. So around that time, when I went full time, I streamlined the services that I was offering and also the way I was offering them. So I transitioned to day rates. And so now, basically, people will hire me for a day or two, whatever it is, and I just dive right into their project, write it in one dedicated chunk, and then that way it's not dragging on for weeks and weeks. We just do it in that dedicated time period, and I'm able to plan my schedule a lot better.

Laura Kåmark [00:09:21]:

I love that so much. I love day rates. They're my favorite way to work. They're my favorite way to hire people to work for me, because it gets done so fast. I mean, you've written copy for my website, you've written sales pages for me. I've referred you out to anyone who ever. I'm like, go talk to Nicole. I've been so impressed with your skills for how you have a way to make it sound like me, and I didn't write that, and it sounds like me.

Laura Kåmark [00:09:48]:

And is it because she knows me? Is it because we're in this group together? But then I've had you, or I've read the copy you've written for other people that I know, and I'm like, it sounds just like them, and it's really impressive. I'm just blown away by your skills with it.

Nicole Kepic [00:10:07]:

It also helps, too, if I know the industry so well or I know the profession so well. So I love writing for web designers. I love writing for coaches, because I've worked with coaches, I've worked with web designers, so I can understand kind of the arena that they're working in, so it's easier for me to write to.

Laura Kåmark [00:10:25]:

Yeah, I know when you've written some stuff for me, you're like, I can relate to this because I am your ideal client, so I can put myself in those shoes and really feel right from a place of knowing something else. I've always really enjoyed about the way you write is it's conversational and it's funny.

Nicole Kepic [00:10:47]:

Thank you.

Laura Kåmark [00:10:49]:

I find that it's sort of a different type of copy than I've seen a lot of. I find it a lot more enjoyable and more personable. Can you speak to that at all on kind of your style of writing?

Nicole Kepic [00:11:03]:

Yeah, I mean, that's kind of my go to style is really conversational, but that has gotten me in trouble one or two times where I've written for an audience or somebody that's wanted more formal copy and they've had to say, I said I wanted warm and friendly, but maybe not so warm and friendly, but yeah. Generally my go to style is like warm, friendly, approachable. Just the way you would speak to somebody over a coffee chat or something. And that's usually what people want. That's what most business owners want, especially when it's just like a solopreneur or somebody as the face of their brand. They want it to feel really human. But like I said, sometimes there is the need to make it a bit more formal. And I can do that too, but I will always lean more conversational.

Nicole Kepic [00:11:46]:

That's my preference.

Laura Kåmark [00:11:48]:

It's hilarious. I know. I've reread things on my website. I'm just like, this is really funny.

Nicole Kepic [00:11:54]:

I love it.

Laura Kåmark [00:11:57]:

Can you talk a little bit about. Okay, so you do the one on one services, and then last year you also created some products. Can we talk about that a little bit in that journey?

Nicole Kepic [00:12:08]:

Yes. I feel like you're giving me a gentle nudge to talk about them because I always forget to promote them. Yeah. So I created a couple of digital products. Elevate your email copy, which is a whole kit, really. So it includes a welcome sequence. It includes 52 weeks of email topics. What else? A storytelling guide, like using stories in your marketing, a few other things, but it's really for people who already have an email list, whether it's big or small, but then they're ghosting their audience because they don't know what to write them.

Nicole Kepic [00:12:40]:

So this kind of gives them from the welcome sequence to the nurture emails, something to say to their audience. So there's that one, that was the first one. That one took a long time to create. And I realized, wow, a lot of work goes into a low ticket product, let me tell you.

Laura Kåmark [00:12:57]:

I mean, 52 weeks of emails, that's a lot of topics to cover. I know for me, I've been growing my email list and I'm one of those people that's like, I have a list. I don't know what to say to them now and I don't know what topics to talk about. I want it to be funny. I want to be engaging. I want to be valuable because I don't want to be sending people things that people on my list, anything that they're like, why are you sending me this?

Nicole Kepic [00:13:22]:

This is junk.

Laura Kåmark [00:13:23]:

I want them to find value in it. And so then I get hung up in this perfectionism, overcomplicating, overthinking. And I know I'm not the only one with that struggle. So I love that you created that. That was definitely something that I needed and immediately purchased and I use, I just sent out an email last week and you even replied to it. And I was just like, it was so easy to write because I had your template to kind of give me some thought, joggers on how to just write something in a nice conversational way and a great topic.

Nicole Kepic [00:13:56]:

Oh, I'm so glad. Yeah. And honestly, like you said, everybody struggles with it, even myself. Normally, I try to batch. I mean, I try to follow my own advice and batch write a few at a time. But say, for this week, I just realized life has been crazy lately and I don't have an email. And I was thinking, what am I going to write tomorrow? And then it didn't even dawn on me, oh, I should use my own kit that I created. But, yeah, everybody feels that way sometimes.

Nicole Kepic [00:14:22]:

Or you think, oh, is this interesting? Is this relevant? But I think your subscribers are a lot more forgiving than you think. Especially they've signed up to hear from you. They know you, they like you. They're not as judgy as, yeah, you.

Laura Kåmark [00:14:34]:

Might think they're not as judgy as we are on ourselves.

Nicole Kepic [00:14:38]:

Yes, we are the worst to ourselves.

Laura Kåmark [00:14:40]:

We are, for sure. Okay, so you have the 52 weeks email sequence and then you have, I think, two other products.

Nicole Kepic [00:14:49]:

So I have the email kit and then I have a launch, like a pro sales copy kit. So it's got a template for your sales page and then launch emails to go with it. So basically, the sales page, I haven't written the sales page for you, obviously, but I've kind of guided you section by section on what to write, what to say, how to say it, and then the launch emails, those ones I've pretty much written for people where I've got most of the content there, and they just have to fill in their brand details and obviously tweak it to their offer details as well. So that one, I do need to start promoting more because I know sales copy is a big pain point for some people.

Laura Kåmark [00:15:30]:

Oh, absolutely. It's hard because you're like, what do I write? How do I talk about this thing that I'm so close to?

Nicole Kepic [00:15:39]:

Yeah, absolutely. And doing it in a way, too, that still feels like we were talked about, really friendly and conversational and not like, buy this, buy this, buy this.

Laura Kåmark [00:15:47]:

Exactly.

Nicole Kepic [00:15:47]:

Yeah, exactly.

Laura Kåmark [00:15:49]:

So what would you say was something that was kind of surprising when you were creating, in your journey for going from doing solely one on one to creating a digital product, something that you found surprising in that sort of journey?

Nicole Kepic [00:16:05]:

Well, definitely, like I said, more work than I thought to create those things. Yeah. And then mindset issues always pop up. They pop up all the time for everything, because then you think, oh, but there are similar products out there. Other people have created similar products, but then you have to remember, nobody is you and you will always have a different spin or take on it, whether it's a digital product or a service, whatever it might be. So you just have to remember that. Yeah. And then I would say, especially when I was creating those products, also keeping up with client work, too.

Nicole Kepic [00:16:43]:

I mean, in an ideal world, you would clear your calendar and just have all this white space to create those things. But that's not always the case.

Laura Kåmark [00:16:52]:

I can relate to that so much because I have a digital product I've been working on for a while now, and it always seems to get put on the back burner because the client work comes first. And so it's hard to make that space for working on your own business or even creating something for your business. There's two different pieces of that because there's also the CEO piece that has to be done.

Nicole Kepic [00:17:13]:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's so many things in your business. That's what I learned when I went full time in it, that, yeah, you're doing everything. The marketing, the sales, like the social media, everything. You're doing it all. So it's a lot.

Laura Kåmark [00:17:26]:

Is there anything that you outsource in your business?

Nicole Kepic [00:17:31]:

Let's see. Oh, no, this is going to get me in trouble. I have somebody who I've hired as she's a designer and I've hired her to help me with VA type work, design work and va stuff. But I have just been really bad lately at setting aside time to delegate versus like, oh, I'm just going to do this myself. I don't have any staff. It's just right now it's just me. But I am a big fan of hiring out for one off things like, I've hired you for tech integration and design coaches. Obviously, I've hired many coaches.

Nicole Kepic [00:18:11]:

I'm addicted. What else? Yeah, tech integration, design coaching. I think when I got honeybook set up, I hired out for that, too. Like anything that I'm like, ooh, this is going to take me a long time to learn how to do or I do not want to do this, I'm just going to hire out.

Laura Kåmark [00:18:28]:

I think that's so smart because we can spend so much time and if we're not working in our zone and doing things that really bring us joy, we put it off.

Nicole Kepic [00:18:37]:

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And we spend way too much time on it and then it just turns out, like subpar. It's not good. Yeah. As I'm having flashbacks of my first website that I diy, it's so ugly. Yeah.

Laura Kåmark [00:18:51]:

But I also think it's good to when you're first starting out, when you are bootstrapping and you're just trying to figure out because also, even like with a website and copy, I don't believe that people should hire copywriters when they're first starting out because their business is going to evolve and change and their offers are going to evolve and change. And so I believe that they need to just make it simple, get something simple up and focus more on getting more clients and making those sales and building their audience and really just getting their clients results and then from there, as they figure out what the business is going to look like. Like, even when you said that you first started and you had all these different products you were offering and now you're to the point where you've really narrowed it down and gotten a lot clearer.

Nicole Kepic [00:19:39]:

Yeah, absolutely. I would 100% say that because if somebody hires me and they don't even know who their target audience is or what they're really offering. Yeah. I would feel really bad taking their money because then they're just going to have to rewrite it a few months down the road when they change their mind.

Laura Kåmark [00:19:56]:

So who are the perfect people that you love to work with.

Nicole Kepic [00:20:00]:

Oh my gosh, I have had such a struggle with niching, to be honest with you. I'm going to be doing some more thinking about that in the near future, so stay tuned. But I feel like, because I am one of those people, like, I like writing for all female entrepreneurs, but that's such a wide group of people. But in general, I really like writing for people who are a bit more established in their business. Not to say I won't write for people who are brand new, but like I said, it just really helps if they are clear on who they're serving and what their values are and their main message. And it's just so much easier for me to write for them. So typically it's people who have been in business for a few years and they feel like their copy was diY'd before, or their business has changed so much that the copy is no longer matching where they are in their business. Like, it needs an up level.

Nicole Kepic [00:20:56]:

That word gets used all the time, but it's true. The copy needs to catch up to where they are in their business, or they feel like it doesn't sound like them or it's not converting, it's not selling. So that's typically who I serve, people who are a few years into business and they just need a revamp, basically. Yeah.

Laura Kåmark [00:21:16]:

I mean, that's where I was. I struggled with the copy on my website for years, and I never felt it was just right on point. And so that was when I was ready to, I knew who I was talking to, I knew what services I was providing, and it was time for me to hire someone who could really just get my messaging right. And I've gotten so many compliments on my copy.

Nicole Kepic [00:21:38]:

Oh, I'm so glad to hear that.

Laura Kåmark [00:21:40]:

I was just on a copy the other day, and she was like, I just really resonated with your tone. And it was funny and there was so much personality. And then I was like, yes, that's what I was going for because I wasn't able to put that on paper. I do much better on video talking.

Nicole Kepic [00:21:53]:

To people well, and the other thing, too, I would say, if you're asking my ideal clients, it's also the mentality of somebody who's ready to invest and somebody who understands the value in it, too. I shouldn't say this. I don't want to get on a call with somebody and have to convince them of the value of copywriting. I'm happy to do that. Maybe some people are totally new to copywriting, but it just makes it so much easier for me if people already understand the value of it and they're not going to say, hey, can we do it cheaper? My ideal client knows the value of it and is willing to invest the same way. I invest in other things, too. I really do believe that you can't expect people to invest in you if you're not investing in other things, too.

Laura Kåmark [00:22:41]:

100%. I saw so much change in my business when I got to the point where I was ready to start investing more in my business, my growth and all those things, that's when I saw my business start to take off.

Nicole Kepic [00:22:53]:

Oh, wow. Yeah, it's really cyclical. I mean, you have to be smart about it, too. You can't be, like, investing way more than you're making. But, yeah, absolutely. That's how your business grows.

Laura Kåmark [00:23:08]:

I know. For me, when I first went out on my own, kind of unexpectedly because I was laid off unexpectedly for my corporate job, but I found it really lonely. And that was one of the reasons when I finally did start, it was, I feel like in 2020, when kind of the world changed and everything changed and I lost a bunch of clients just because of what was happening for my retainer clients. And I really took some time to figure out what I wanted to do and what services I was going to be offering. And it was really lonely for a long time in there. I had a number of years where I didn't have kind of like, I hadn't found my people, my tribe, who my biz besties, who I could connect with. And that to me, was something else that really, I felt like changed my business is when I started building those networks and having those connections. And can you speak on that at all, where you've kind of found your people to connect with and network with and really form those bonds with and how that's affected your business?

Nicole Kepic [00:24:09]:

Yeah, I mean, it's been so helpful because if I think back to when I was just freelancing, you're right, it's just very solitary. It was just kind of me working on my laptop. But, yeah, I feel really lucky that basically as soon as I jumped in full time, that was right around the time when I joined that day rate group and met you and the others. And it's kind of like I had that community right from the beginning. So I didn't go through that really lonely stage because right away I was like, oh, wow, this comes with having your own business. You get a bunch of new friends. It's just amazing. I like how we will even send each other messages back and forth and voice messages and stuff.

Nicole Kepic [00:24:50]:

And you're driving chronicles. You'll send me random messages as you're driving. And it is really nice to just have people who understand, fully understand what you're going through as a business owner and how you're trying to balance all the things and the mindset stuff. For sure. That's usually what we are when we're on our small group calls. We're usually boosting each other up, saying, no, you can absolutely do this and get out of your own head. We're helping each other with more of that stuff versus the actual strategies. I find, like the tactical stuff.

Laura Kåmark [00:25:23]:

I agree 100% because, yeah, it is all mindset and we all get so caught up in our own little downward spiral of questioning ourselves and our skills, and we have skills and we bring value to our clients, and sometimes we need someone else to remind us of that. Yeah, I know I do.

Nicole Kepic [00:25:42]:

And you are such a good cheerleader for people. I don't know, what's the name for it? For people that connect other people. You are that person who connects people and then is like their cheerleader with the pompoms and everything.

Laura Kåmark [00:25:55]:

I would love to know, what would you say is kind of one of the biggest mindset hurdles that you feel like you've had to overcome in your journey?

Nicole Kepic [00:26:03]:

Oh, my gosh. I've had a few. The one that's popping in my head right now is I've thought to myself, well, what makes me different? Even though I just gave the advice 20 minutes ago about how you have your own spin on things, but it's easy to go on Instagram or anywhere else and see, oh, wow, there are 5 billion other copywriters. Like, what makes me different? Why is somebody going to choose me over somebody else? So I've definitely had those thoughts before. I remember when I started writing for coaches. Another weird mindset thing I had was I put coaches on this super high pedestal, I think, because, again, on Instagram, I saw all these coaches talking about making $50,000 in one day, and I was like, oh, wow, these people are fancy. I don't know if I can write for them. But meanwhile, I had 20 years copywriting experience, but this was a new audience to me, so I kind of felt like I was, like I said, a newbie and, ooh, I'm not worthy to write for them.

Nicole Kepic [00:27:03]:

Like, they are on this high pedestal. And then, of course, then I met a few coaches and they're the most lovely people and great to work with. Great to write for at least the ones that I have. So, I don't know, the mind plays weird tricks on you sometimes. Absolutely.

Laura Kåmark [00:27:19]:

It's exactly what it does. Yeah, I can relate to all of that as well. I've had some web design clients that I'm like, oh, they've been in business for so long, they're so successful. And, I mean, we're all people.

Nicole Kepic [00:27:35]:

But.

Laura Kåmark [00:27:35]:

It is, the mind does definitely play tricks, for sure.

Nicole Kepic [00:27:39]:

Yeah. And I think you also have to realize, too, that, like somebody was saying before, your clients don't have the skill that you have. So I remember back in the day, writing for a doctor and a lawyer and thinking, ooh, again, these people are fancy. These are like doctors and lawyers, but they don't have copywriting skills, so there's no need to think that, oh, my gosh, who might have worked for them when they don't have the skills I have. Same with you. They wouldn't have web design skills.

Laura Kåmark [00:28:07]:

Well, and also, like we touched on earlier, owning our own business, we wear so many different hats and it's exhausting. And when we're trying to do it all, it gets really exhausting. And so I know, again, like, going back to when I was trying to write my own copy, it was so exhausting. And I could have sat there, I would probably still be trying to figure it out. Or I could outsource it to someone who loves to write copy and is going to do probably a better job than I. Not probably. You did a much better job than I would ever be able to do. It's the give and the take.

Laura Kåmark [00:28:41]:

You can either spend the time and it depends, like, what do you have? Do you have more time or do you have what's more important, having the time or having the money? I right now, don't have a lot of time. I have young kids. I never know when they're going to be home. And to me, if something's going to take too much time and it's going to slow down the growth of my business, I want to outsource it.

Nicole Kepic [00:29:03]:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that takes practice, too. So you might be really scared to do it the first time because you're not sure if you're going to get that return on investment. But then I think once you've outsourced a couple of times and you're like, oh, wow, not only did this save me time, but it just alexa going off in the background, not only does it save you time, but it also propels your business forward in ways that you didn't imagine.

Laura Kåmark [00:29:30]:

Exactly. Because it's also looking at things as an investment and not as an expense.

Nicole Kepic [00:29:35]:

Yes, that's a big one. That's a big one. And it's hard, especially when you first start your business, because, of course, you're super mindful of that when you're just starting out because you want to be making sure that you're making money too.

Laura Kåmark [00:29:49]:

Exactly. I know. Absolutely. So I would also love to talk a little bit about what do you find that you're doing different in the industry? How would you say you're being bold in the industry?

Nicole Kepic [00:30:09]:

It could go back to that conversational piece that we're talking about. So just giving people the permission to write in a way that's friendly and approachable and human, like, giving them permission to be human, to show up and write in a way that's uniquely their own and just to embrace who they are and not feel like they have to write in a super formal marketing type way. Just being who they are and human.

Laura Kåmark [00:30:35]:

So do you have any tips for our audience on how to bring more of that kind of personal touch to their emails or copy?

Nicole Kepic [00:30:45]:

Yeah, I mean, something super simple is using fewer contractions. So when you're writing, instead of saying, I do not, you would say I don't. Because when you're talking with somebody, usually use contractions. Usually say I don't or like I wanna or whatever it is. So you can be more casual as you're writing too, because that's how you would speak. So just thinking, how would I say this? If I was talking to somebody one on one? And then if you have any favorite expressions or phrases, or if you have a unique sense of humor, you can inject those into your copy, too. Let's see, what else. Yeah, just removing the jargon too.

Nicole Kepic [00:31:24]:

Sometimes people will add in a lot of jargon or like big words and long sentences because they think it makes them sound more professional or smarter, but just very casual. Everyday language works, too.

Laura Kåmark [00:31:37]:

I know I am like Queen of the run on sentences and run on thoughts, not in a jargony way, but I just have long run on. And I stopped worrying about it as much because I know I had someone who recently unsubscribed from my email list and they were like, you have typos on your website. I'm like, that's okay, it's okay.

Nicole Kepic [00:32:01]:

Yeah, we've had that conversation too, about perfection. And yeah, I think we were talking to you before about when I went to journalism school and university. If we had a typo in our assignments, that was an automatic zero. Like if you made one spelling mistake, no matter how much research you had done on that article, and if the article was 1000 words, if you had one mistake, you got an automatic zero. So I remember in the corporate world, and then even in my own business, thinking, oh, my gosh, I cannot have a typo. And then I remember you saying, nah, who cares if you've got a typo? It's just human. Obviously, you don't want typos like littering your work, but, yeah, especially for entrepreneurs, solopreneurs. Just human.

Nicole Kepic [00:32:42]:

So it's going to happen. It's not the end of the world.

Laura Kåmark [00:32:44]:

Absolutely. I know in terms of storytelling and trying to, that's something I find that I struggle a little bit with is I have a lot of stories and trying to find the bridge that pulls that into a business lesson that I read so many emails, I'm like, wow, that was so well done. Do you have any tips on how to kind of find ways to take the personal story and massage it into a business lesson?

Nicole Kepic [00:33:16]:

Yeah, I mean, usually I'll have an intro with a story, and then you're right, it needs kind of like a segue, something like, why do I share this with you? Or it's kind of like in business, and then you go into the business lesson. But usually it only works if the story and the business lesson have the same theme. So say the theme is like overwhelm. So you're talking your real life story, your day to day story is like a funny situation where you're overwhelmed and then you segue into it. It's kind of like in business when you're overwhelmed with this or whatever. Or maybe it's like, pick a theme. Anything, whatever it might be. Just both things should have the same theme so you can kind of tie them together, if that makes sense.

Laura Kåmark [00:33:57]:

Oh, I love that. I love how you just broke that down, too, because I don't know that I've thought of it that way. I have a lot of thoughts when I'm out walking the dog. Oh, that would be a really great story that I could, I'm like, but how do I connect that back to business? So trying to find the common theme. I love that.

Nicole Kepic [00:34:15]:

Yeah. Or you can pick your theme first and then find a story that matches it. But I mean, yeah, whatever. Sometimes it's just like thinking or remembering those funny, quirky little stories. Most of those things can be turned into, well, they can be used in email and they can be turned into a business. Yeah, you just need that smooth segue. It's all about the smooth segue.

Laura Kåmark [00:34:39]:

I've always found your email. So to all the listeners out there, if you are not on Nicole's email address or on her email list, I highly recommend getting on there. I look forward to your emails every week when they come out because you do such a good job of the storytelling. And I find them so personable and they make me smile, they make me laugh, they make me want to reply, which is really what we're all shooting for when we're writing our email sequences. So I love how you're able to do that. Thank you.

Nicole Kepic [00:35:13]:

Yeah. I mean, stories help, obviously, with building connection, and not every email has to be a story. You could do tips, you can do, like, here's what's happening in my business. It doesn't have to be a story every time, but it definitely helps with building connection. And then even if you just get people to ask them a trivial question or a little question, they reply. That's building connection, too. And getting people used to replying to you so that it can also start a new conversation as well, too. So it might seem like a little insignificant action that somebody's replying, but it's a big deal.

Laura Kåmark [00:35:45]:

Do you find that you ever have stories that you're writing out and it's really long and you're like, okay, I got to pare this thing down. It's just way too long of a story. I know. I struggle with that as, again, a very wordy, long winded person. Do you have any tips for how to kind of pare down those long run on stories?

Nicole Kepic [00:36:09]:

Oh, my gosh, yes, I definitely have that. And then, especially as a copywriter, I feel so married to each word in each sentence, like, oh, I got to keep this in. I like every word. And then I'm like, no, whatever. You just have to remember, so long as the structure and overall message is still intact, whatever you take out, your reader is not even going to know they're not going to miss it because they didn't see it in the first place. So, yeah, you just tell yourself and then read it out loud, too, because if you find some places are repetitive, you can take stuff out that way as well. But, yeah, just remember that your reader won't miss it because they didn't see it. They didn't see what you took out on that note.

Nicole Kepic [00:36:48]:

Oh, sorry. I just thought of something else too, though. On that note, there's nothing wrong. I mean, of course, people have short attention span so short emails are good, but if you have a really long email, but it's super interesting and engaging, then go for it, too. There's no rule that says your email has to be like 75 words or less.

Laura Kåmark [00:37:08]:

Oh, I love that. I find that one of the things that has helped me with writing, like how I talk, is to. I'll actually loom record myself because loom does transcripts, and so I'll loom record. I don't really necessarily watch it. I just loom record it as I'm talking and telling the story or writing out the email. I tried Google Docs has a talk to text, but sometimes I don't get the words right. And then I look back at it, I'm like, what was I saying there? And so that's why I do like to use loom where it's recorded so I can go back and see what I actually said and correct the transcript as needed. But I found that really helpful for me for kind of pulling the words out and putting them on paper when I'm sitting there staring at a blank Google Doc.

Nicole Kepic [00:37:53]:

That's such a good idea. Yeah. And then you can, in theory, record it anytime and then come back to it later. Right. You don't have to do, like, record, right. You can record and then come back to it a week later if you wanted to. Yeah.

Laura Kåmark [00:38:04]:

Just if you do it on your phone, make sure it doesn't cut you off. Because one time my phone, it was getting really good, and then I looked down, I'm like, oh, no, it stopped.

Nicole Kepic [00:38:13]:

Oh, man.

Laura Kåmark [00:38:14]:

What did I say?

Nicole Kepic [00:38:18]:

That's too bad.

Laura Kåmark [00:38:19]:

Oh, I love all these tips because.

Nicole Kepic [00:38:20]:

Yeah.

Laura Kåmark [00:38:20]:

Again, as someone who has struggled with copy pretty much since I started my business, and I've also been trying to implement the nurture sequence, where I have an ongoing evergreen sequence, which is something I've been implementing for clients as well. And a lot of them, I send them to get your 52 weeks to get inspiration on because you also have four different pillars that you talk about in there. Can you talk about the pillars a little bit?

Nicole Kepic [00:38:43]:

Yes, if I can remember what they are, because I wrote it so long. I know one is handy tips, so you're providing an educational or handy tip to your readers. There's a sell with confidence one that's where you're just, like, unapologetically selling your offers. There is a just for fun one. This is me trying to remember what they are. There's a just for fun one where it's just like, hey, this is what's happening. In my life, that's not related to business, because sometimes people do want to get to know you better on that level, too, not just like business all the time. What is the other one?

Laura Kåmark [00:39:22]:

Is it behind the scenes?

Nicole Kepic [00:39:23]:

Behind the scenes, yes, that's it. So that's more like behind the scenes of your business, talking about your process, maybe client stories, just so that people can get a sense of what it's like to work with you.

Laura Kåmark [00:39:37]:

Do you repurpose a lot of your content, like in your emails? Do you then repurpose any of that on social media or talk about.

Nicole Kepic [00:39:44]:

Yeah, I typically start with email because then it will typically be longer and then I'll shorten it, condense it for Instagram. So, yeah, typically I will use it in both places.

Laura Kåmark [00:39:56]:

Yeah, I love that. Because then you're just writing the email and then you can slice and dice from there and probably get a couple of posts if needed.

Nicole Kepic [00:40:03]:

Yeah, I've only gotten one, but I mean, I could probably do a better job of repurposing. There are still so many things in my business that I think I'm doing way too manually that I need to automate a bit more. That's probably one of them.

Laura Kåmark [00:40:18]:

Yeah. I know you know this about me. I'm a big fan of celebrating our wins and celebrating the little things and the actions we take and just celebrating the accomplishments that we've all had in our business. I would love to know that when it comes to your business, what's something you are most proud of yourself for?

Nicole Kepic [00:40:39]:

Oh, my gosh. I did not see this question. What am I most proud of? I mean, honestly, I was really proud of last year. So, like I said, last year was my first full year, full time in business. And when I first started it, I had those thoughts of, oh, jeez, what if the clients don't come? Of course there was that thought. Even though I had prepped and done all the things, it was still a scary leap into full time entrepreneurship. And then I ended up being pretty busy all year. So at the end of it, I remember you again being like, you need to celebrate this.

Nicole Kepic [00:41:20]:

You had such a great year. This is crazy. This is your first year now. I will say, too, though, I've learned some things since that last year, because I feel like last year, even though it was successful and I met so many great people, wrote for so many great clients, I definitely see how it was like, there was a lot of hustle happening when there shouldn't have been some nights and weekends, because again, it was probably scarcity mindset of like, okay, this is my first year in business. This is the first time I haven't had a steady paycheck. I better say yes to this project, because what if next month there's no clients? So I know there was some scarcity mindset happening, which led to some overworking and not the best boundaries. So now this year, I'm just trying to work smarter with that stuff.

Laura Kåmark [00:42:08]:

Have more white space.

Nicole Kepic [00:42:09]:

Yes, that is my word of the year, which I have to remind myself of. And yes, because I remember working with starting with a one to one coach back in January. We did four months together, and she looked at my current calendar and she said, where's your white space? Where are you doing big picture thinking for your business? Where are you thinking of new digital products? Or where are you resting, basically. And I was like, yeah, there wasn't really any white space. And so, yeah, if I didn't want to repeat last year, I had to intentionally think about that, and I still have to remind myself of that.

Laura Kåmark [00:42:50]:

How are you finding that? You're kind of juggling that balance of finding the white space and not pushing yourself to hustle too hard. What are you telling yourself?

Nicole Kepic [00:43:03]:

Well, there's one thing I'm actually doing. Most times I was doing this. So when I was working with this one to one coach, she said, why don't you do three weeks on vip days, one week off. So you're one week off. It's not like you're just sitting on the couch watching soap operas. You're doing behind the scenes stuff in your business, or you're doing your marketing. Whatever you're doing, you're still working, but you're not doing client work. So I say about half the time, I was good at sticking to that.

Nicole Kepic [00:43:30]:

But then other times, I would get a client, come, like, instant message me or something and say, hey, I need a sales page written, but I need it in three weeks. Can you squeeze me in or something? And I'd look on my calendar, and I would see that empty week, and instead of saying, sorry, I don't have a space, I'd say, oh, yeah, I've got a space. So then I would take them, which, I mean, it's not horrible that I would do that, but my coach basically said, if you keep doing that, hello, you don't have any white space. Again, which goes back to our earlier.

Laura Kåmark [00:44:00]:

Conversation about where we put our client stuff before we put our business stuff. Our business stuff gets put on the back burner.

Nicole Kepic [00:44:06]:

Exactly. 100%. I'm going to say did always put client work first. I mean, it's only natural because we're service providers, but you really have to do put the effort in to set aside that time. So I'm trying to do that. And even this summer, I'm not sure when this is coming up, but this summer, my sister the other day said, why don't you go a lot lighter this summer on your vip days? And at first I was like, no, I can't do that. And now I'm like, you know what? There's a lot that's been happening in life and I think I need to do this and it's going to give me time to again think about my niche that I keep changing and get caught up with marketing and all those things. So, yeah.

Laura Kåmark [00:44:54]:

Mentioning your sister just made me think of a story that you have told that has always stuck in my head and I would love for you to share it with our audience. You have a very interesting story of when you were first born.

Nicole Kepic [00:45:07]:

Oh, okay. I'm like, what story is this? I have a twin sister and we were born on. Well, I guess there's two interesting parts. So this is a while ago. So my mom had us twins, but she didn't know until my sister was born. Afterwards, the doctor said, there's another baby. There's another heartbeat. So my poor mother, who was a single mother at the time, she wasn't with my dad anymore.

Nicole Kepic [00:45:36]:

She thought she was just having one baby. And then all of a sudden there was a single mother. She's having two instead of one. And then the other interesting thing is that even though we're twins, we have separate birthdays because my sister was born 17 minutes before midnight and I was born exactly 17 minutes after midnight.

Laura Kåmark [00:45:53]:

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, I didn't know that. Oh, wow.

Nicole Kepic [00:45:59]:

But can you imagine? I mean, just being a single mother with one child is probably hard enough, but two at the same time.

Laura Kåmark [00:46:05]:

Well, and not even just two at the same time. Two. And not knowing there's going to be two.

Nicole Kepic [00:46:09]:

Yes. Like, no prep. There was one crib. There were not two cribs. There was only one of everything.

Laura Kåmark [00:46:18]:

At least it was two girls.

Nicole Kepic [00:46:20]:

Yes, that's true.

Laura Kåmark [00:46:21]:

But, man. Oh, and I did not know that piece about the separate birthdays. Hilarious. I did not know that.

Nicole Kepic [00:46:27]:

Yeah, it's funny because now on. Well, it depends, you know, how you have really close friends and you have friends that are kind of, like, on the peripheral. So those peripheral friends on Facebook will always wish my sister happy birthday. Happy birthday. And then they'll assume that my birthday is the same day. So then five minutes later, I'll get a message saying, happy birthday. And I'm like, it's not my birthday yet, but that's okay. I get the mistake.

Laura Kåmark [00:46:51]:

I love that I'm going to remember that one, too, because I was just always, as a mother of small children, I just could not imagine the surprise in the delivery room of, like, oh, by the way, there's two.

Nicole Kepic [00:47:03]:

I know. And I was like, okay, it wasn't that long ago. I'm not that old. How come there weren't any ultrasounds or what? And I guess my mom didn't have one. Or I think she said something about, like, our heartbeats were in sync or something, so they thought there was just one child. I don't know what the story is.

Laura Kåmark [00:47:19]:

Someone wasn't paying very close attention.

Nicole Kepic [00:47:22]:

Yeah, that's probably more like it.

Laura Kåmark [00:47:28]:

We are getting close to our time. I do have a couple more questions I do want to ask you. I would love to know if there is one piece of advice that you would give someone when they're first starting out their business that would help them just be bolder, make waves, be more them. Just get over some of that mindset stuff. What's one piece of advice? And maybe it's advice you would give yourself if you could go back.

Nicole Kepic [00:47:52]:

Yeah, I would probably say, be willing to try something once, something new. And the example I think of is a couple of years ago. Yeah, I think it was a couple of years ago, somebody had asked me to be on a podcast, and at the time, my first alarm bells were going off my head, thinking, like, no answer, no, you do not want to do this. You do not like the sound of your voice. You are not interesting enough. Say no. And then I thought, well, I had this other coach at the time, say always, or try to make decisions from the future you. So if future you would be more confident and boldly go on podcasts, then say yes now, even if you don't want.

Nicole Kepic [00:48:33]:

If right now you're thinking, oh, this is the last thing I want to do. So I remember at that time saying, okay, I don't really want to do this, but I'm going to try it. And then I loved it, and it was so much easier than I thought. So if you ever have that feeling of like, should I or should I just try it, you might really like it, and if you hate it, then don't do it again. Or, I mean, obviously, if something is screaming at you that it's wildly. Not for you or your gut is telling you not to do something. Of course, don't do it then. But if you feel like you could do it, but it just feels a bit uncomfortable, at least try it and then go from there.

Laura Kåmark [00:49:08]:

I love that. I think that's fabulous advice.

Nicole Kepic [00:49:10]:

Thank you.

Laura Kåmark [00:49:11]:

Well, Nicole, thank you so much for being here today. This was such a fun conversation. Can you let our listeners know where they can find you online and come hang out with you?

Nicole Kepic [00:49:20]:

Oh, thank you. I loved being here too. Yeah, they can find me on my website, nicolekeepick.com so it's my first name and my last name or on Instagram. That's usually the place I'm hanging out at NK copywriting.

Laura Kåmark [00:49:34]:

Wonderful. And I will link all that up in the show notes. Thank you again. This was so much fun.

Nicole Kepic [00:49:40]:

Thanks, Laura.

Laura Kåmark [00:49:44]:

Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode. Be sure to check out the show notes laurakamark.com/podcast and if you're ready to turn your website into a marketing machine, get more sales, save time and simplify the back end of your business. Grab my free resource power integrations for your website. Head on over to lauracomark.com/power. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure to subscribe. And also, I'll just love you forever if you leave me a review. It helps get this podcast in front of other people that can help inspire.

Laura Kåmark [00:50:21]:

Thanks so much for listening. I'll see you next week. Bye now it's.