Mindset, Marketing, and Running a Successful Web Design Business with Shannon Mattern of Web Designer Academy

Meet Shannon:

Shannon Mattern is the founder of the Web Designer Academy which provides strategic business, marketing and sales coaching for women web designers.

She’s also the host of the Profitable Web Designer Podcast, your go-to resource for mindset and mentorship to help you create a more profitable, sustainable and fulfilling web design business.

Links & Resources:

• Website
• Instagram
• Profitable Web Designer Podcast
• Next Level Mastermind
• Free course for women web designers who want to make more money without working 24/7

Grab my free resource, How To Get More Sales From Your Email List On Autopilot at laurakamark.com/email

Ready to take back your time with sales funnels and evergreen systems
that sell on your behalf.  Let's hop on a call and see if working together is a fit.

Transcript

Laura Kåmark [00:00:00]:
Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Be Bold Make Waves podcast. If you're looking for strategy, systems, list building, and marketing tips to help grow and scale your business with ease, then you are in the right place. I'm your host, Laura Kåmark, an email marketing and tech strategist who works with coaches and consultants who love their work, but not the tech. Join me for conversation packed with actionable insights, strategies, and systems to help you take control of your tech and simplify your business. Let's go ahead and dive in to this week's episode. Hello, and welcome to this week's show. For those of you who don't already know me, I'm Laura Kåmark, Evergreen email strategy systems and setups for coaches and consultants love their work, but not their tech.

Laura Kåmark [00:00:48]:
So my guest today, this is so fun for me because Shannon Mattern is actually the first podcast episode I was ever on as a guest. She was one of my first clients back in forever, and we've worked together for over 4 years. And she was also, I think, the first person I ever bought a course from back in, like, 2016. Like, a program like, a program of some sort. Anyway, so my guest today is Shannon Mattern. Shannon is the founder of the Web Designer Academy, which provides strategic business marketing and sales coaching for women web designers. She's also the host of the Profitable Web Designer podcast, your go to resource for mindset and mentorship to help you create a more profitable, sustainable, and fulfilling web design business. Shannon, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Laura Kåmark [00:01:36]:
Can you tell our listeners a little bit more about how you're helping your clients?

Shannon Mattern [00:01:41]:
Laura, thank you so much for having me. It is an honor to be here on your show. I'm so excited to get to talk to you today. So, yeah, we help, like you said, we help women web designers actually, build the skill of running a business. So what I found on my journey and in the 100, if not thousands, of web designers that I've talked to now along the way is that, like, we put a lot of time into learning our craft, learning the skills, learning the tech, learning the strategy to be able to serve our clients at a really high level, but we don't put that same amount of time, effort, and skill into learning how to market ourselves, sell projects, price, run projects, all of those things. And so it's just a really big gap that I found, in that that, you know, freelancers need help with in order to actually, like, make the business not just work, but make it not, like, a grind and make it not, make it fun and make it support their life instead of it kind of sucking the life out of them.

Laura Kåmark [00:03:00]:
Yeah. I know one of the things that I feel like I've gotten because I joined the program at the very beginning where it was a very different program and then have stayed with the program over the years over the different iterations. And something that I really has always stuck with me was creating boundaries. Can you talk a little bit about how you help your clients when it comes to boundary setting with their clients?

Shannon Mattern [00:03:25]:
Yeah. So back, you know, when I first started working with, 1 on 1 web design clients, I just thought that, like, oh, hey. These people are paying me money. They've hired me to do something. Now I have to do whatever they want, whenever they want, at whatever, you know, on whatever schedule they have to keep them as a client. And what I didn't realize at the time is that I had, like, brought with me the same mindset that I had at my day job. Like, oh, I have to follow the rules and do what my boss says and, get these things done by these arbitrary deadlines set by someone else in order to keep my job and keep getting paid. And I figured out the hard way, I would say, that, that it's not it's not sustainable to not only let one client run the show when it comes to your business, but once you start getting multiple clients, it makes it even harder to, keep everyone happy and jump when they say jump and, not just it's not even about meeting their deadlines.

Shannon Mattern [00:04:40]:
It's about it's almost always about dealing with their extensions and them not being ready and not getting the stuff to you on time and all of the challenges that, you know, business owners go through. They're biting off more than they can chew and all of those things. And so, I I really learned the hard way that I'm like, oh, the only one that can change this is me. And I actually do get to decide what this looks like, and I do get to, communicate that to my clients. And 99.9% of my clients were awesome people. They just needed me to lead them. Yeah. They just needed me to, like, run the show and tell them what to do.

Shannon Mattern [00:05:22]:
Otherwise, they were kinda left to their own devices. So, that's where the concept of, like, setting boundaries came in, when I realized, like, oh, I have to do this differently if this is going to actually work.

Laura Kåmark [00:05:39]:
Oh, I love that so much. Yeah. The thing that I have found is, like, what you were just saying, clients don't know what they don't know. They don't know when we sign on a project with them. They don't know exactly what like, now what happens? So we have to tell them, here's what your next steps. Here's what I need from you. Here's and I got to the point where I was so specific. Here is every detailed little thing that I need from you, and here's the deadline I need it by.

Laura Kåmark [00:06:04]:
And I what I do with projects now is I go back to the clients, and we'll give them the updates and say, okay. I've received these things. Here's the outstanding items I still need from you. And I hear from some people, they're like, oh, I don't wanna bug them and this and that. I'm like, everyone's busy. Like, they need this project done. Whether for me, it's a website project or an evergreen email sequence project. They want this done, but it is not their top priority.

Laura Kåmark [00:06:28]:
They're running their business as their top priority. So when they hire me, they're part of what they're hiring me to do is keep them on track and be on them like crazy so that I can get my piece done because, otherwise, it turns into, what do you call them, zombie projects, I believe?

Shannon Mattern [00:06:44]:
Zombie clients. Zombie projects and zombie clients. And, you know, just in knowing you and working with you over the years, it like, what you do for your clients in terms of that is, like, such a gift. Right? Like, we think of it as like, oh, we're micromanaging our clients or we are babysitting them or or whatever, But it truly is, like, when someone has thought ahead of all of the things that you're going to need to do and then just, like, hands you a list and is like, here's what I need by when. Like, what a gift. All of these decisions have been made for me. I don't have to think about it. I know exactly what's gonna happen.

Shannon Mattern [00:07:31]:
I know that if I have questions about something that you've asked me for, that you'll clarify that for me, and it just takes the mental load off. I mean, you think of, like, how much this client is, like, investing in terms of time, money, and trust in working with you. And when you are, like, handing them that that list is, like, I got you. I've got this. You are gonna be so well taken care of. I've thought ahead about everything. And if you can think about, like, setting boundaries in that way, it just changes the whole tone of, like, how you feel when you go to do it.

Laura Kåmark [00:08:13]:
Absolutely. Oh, I love that. I wanna talk a little bit about the this idea that you, I know, talk about a lot in the program with Mind Trash and sort of the things that come up for your clients and that we're all dealing with as service providers in the online space, especially. I know I hear it all the times from friends. I know I get blocked all the time and have it come up. Can you tell the audience a little bit about this whole mind crash, idea?

Shannon Mattern [00:08:40]:
Yeah. I mean, I get it too. Right? So I you know, we talk about mindset all the time and, like, you know, the things you think drive how you, feel and how you feel drive your actions and how you drive your like, the actions you take create your results. Right? And so I remember I was, doing a podcast interview with a woman named Jasmine Haley, and she we were talking about this, and she was she had, like, said the concept mind trash. And I'm like, oh my gosh. This is exactly what this is. And so I think of mind trash as, like, thoughts that create unwanted results for you. And and so, you know, when you're thinking things like, I can't charge that much because, it it's not I'm self taught.

Shannon Mattern [00:09:31]:
That's, like, such a common one. And I know it's really common in, like, the web design space, but I'm guessing it's common in any kind of service provider space or coaching space. Like, imagine if your coach is like, well, I can't charge that much because I don't have a certification in this specific coaching modality. Or but, like, meanwhile, this person has so much life experience or maybe a career experience or maybe they did this at their day job and they were paid really well-to-do it, but they're not, quote, unquote, certified or don't have a degree in it. Right? And so that is one of the the the the that thought creates feelings of inadequacy, imposter syndrome, whatever. And when you feel that way, what do you do or not do? You don't market yourself. You keep your prices low. You, you know, say yes to extra requests because you feel like you have to, like, make up for this, like, perceived lack, and that creates an unwanted result of overworking, not making enough money, and generally just, like, kinda feeling bad about, like, what you're doing, and and it feels hard.

Shannon Mattern [00:10:45]:
And so that's what I consider to be mind trash. It's, like, any thought that you're having that creates an unwanted result, and the truth is that you can you can decide to believe something different. It just takes a decision. I know it sounds super simple in practice. It's not as easy as it sounds, but when you decide to think something differently or believe something different, then you can start to create wanted results in your business, like charging more, like saying no, like setting boundaries, like actually liking what you do.

Laura Kåmark [00:11:23]:
Oh, so good. I love it so much. I know that that is something that comes up all the time in the program. I'm actually in your next level program. Can you talk a little bit with our audience about what next level is and how you help your clients in there? Because you have Web Designer Academy and then next level.

Shannon Mattern [00:11:40]:
Yeah. So Web Designer Academy is basically like mechanics and strategy and systems and processes and templates and tools. And, you know, we're like, okay. Here is we're we're gonna teach you the skill of running the business side of your web design business. And we also know that as you go to implement that skill, you are gonna have mind trash come up because we're gonna be teaching you, to think in ways that you've never thought before. We're gonna ask you to do things that you've never done before, and we've a 1000% expect your mind trash to come up, and we coach you through that all along the way. Next level is different in that, like okay. Once you have implemented like, you have systems, processes, and boundaries in your business, whether you learn them with the Web Designer Academy or you've done them you you've built them yourself.

Shannon Mattern [00:12:36]:
You've learned them from other programs, and you have, like, reached this kind of, like, level of, like, okay. Like, I feel like I know what I'm doing. I've got systems and processes down, but why does this still feel terrible? Why is it that I, you know, want to, like, create more money or create more time, but I just can't seem to figure out how or I feel really stuck? Or I feel like, yes, I've, like, maybe reached success financially, but, like, things feel like they're falling apart around me, maybe in my business or my life. Or on the flip side, you're like, I feel like I, like, I should be making more than I am right now. Like, I've been doing this for a long time, but I just kinda feel, like, stuck in certain areas. And so where next level comes in is kind of like the ultimate, like I don't know. I don't want mind trash cleaner upper. I don't know how how to really say that, but, like, what we what we know is that it's not a systems and process.

Shannon Mattern [00:13:49]:
Like, when you've gotten to that point, it's not a systems and process problem. It's not a strategy. There's no system that you're missing. All of the things that anybody out there is teaching will work. It's usually something deeper than that. It's something it's like a core belief that's causing you to think certain things. Like, you know, for example, we have people that are like, well, I'm already charging this much. I couldn't possibly charge more.

Shannon Mattern [00:14:19]:
And while that sounds true, like, that's just a thought. Right? Or more often, they're like, okay. The thing I think that I need to actually do to create the business that I wanna create doesn't align with how I actually wanna live my life. So if I build the business that I logically want, it's actually gonna conflict with my core needs as a a human, as a a per like a mom, wife, sister, whatever your your role is, and so you're you're stuck there. Or you would just have some some things that never actually got revealed in the process of implementing systems processes and strategies that's, like, kinda underneath running the show. And so what we do in next level is we, like, help you just get really clear on what your vision is. If there were no if there was nothing in the way and you could have it all, what would that look like? What are you doing today, and how is that, like, aligned with what you want and what's in conflict? What do you really need to do to create what you want? Is it what you think it is, or is it what everyone else is telling you that it should how it should look? How do you get focused in on that? And then once you're really clear on all that, what's stopping you from doing that thing? Because you would have been doing that thing already if it felt safe for you to do that thing. So we help you create some safety around that, and then we just help you implement whatever needs to be implemented to create that.

Shannon Mattern [00:16:06]:
And so it looks different for everybody because everybody comes into next level with a different life, a different family situation, a different business, different goals. And no two people's path looks the same, but the process of figuring out what your path looks like is the same.

Laura Kåmark [00:16:29]:
So I don't

Shannon Mattern [00:16:30]:
know if that all made sense, but that's the difference between, like, next level and just like, oh, I'm gonna teach you some systems processes and strategies that you can implement in your business to go make some more money.

Laura Kåmark [00:16:43]:
I think it made perfect sense, but I also have an inside view of it because I've been in next level for the last few years since it was first implemented. And Yeah. I would say that next level is definitely more of, like, a smaller mastermind close knit little family that we've created where, you know, when you have the mind trash that comes up, when you have the imposter syndrome that comes up, when you're having just one of those days where you want to burn it all down to the ground and you go, and just having a supportive, really tight knit group help lift you up and kinda work you through why are we feeling that way.

Shannon Mattern [00:17:15]:
Well yeah. And I think it's like you have 12 or 15 other people. I can't remember exactly how many people are in there right now who know who you really are on the days that you don't feel like you're that person. They know who you are. They know how powerful you are. They know how amazing you are. They know what you really want. They know what gets in your way, and they're gonna remind you of who you really are on the days that you don't feel like it.

Shannon Mattern [00:17:42]:
And they're gonna, like, ask you questions in, like, the most compassionate way to help you remember who you really are. And it's a it's a really unique thing that you meet strangers who all are kind of on the same path who barely know you, but yet know you almost sometimes better than, like, your closest friends because building a business can be really vulnerable and challenging. And if you think it's just about business, it's usually about way more than business as I have found over the past year. And you need you need people who are in your corner supporting you that and sometimes it's easier to talk about stuff to people that don't know you very well or that you're not gonna see at Thanksgiving. Right?

Laura Kåmark [00:18:43]:
Well, and they get it because that's the other thing. We're all building businesses together. I know I have a lot of friends in real life. They have no idea what I do. I mean, my husband's just finally starting to figure out that I don't do social media or SEO. Like, for long, there was one time I was sitting in the car and was explaining to someone on the phone. He's like, oh, my wife does. I'm like, I don't do any of that.

Laura Kåmark [00:19:04]:
He was like, oh, yeah. She works with developers, and they develop apps. I'm like, no. I don't. That's not what I do.

Shannon Mattern [00:19:11]:
My husband said to me the other day, he's like, you would be so proud of me because someone asked me what my wife does, and I told them that she's a business coach for web designers. And I was like, I am so proud of you. Like, this has been, like, a thing for a long time that he's like, I'm not really sure what she does. I think she might be a web designer. Like

Laura Kåmark [00:19:35]:
There's other people.

Shannon Mattern [00:19:37]:
Yeah. I mean, like so I can talk to him about stuff going on in my business, and he is very, like, he listens and he's very compassionate, but he does not really get it because he's, like he wants to be an employee forever. That's where his what he wants. So yeah. Oh my goodness.

Laura Kåmark [00:19:58]:
So good. I wanna talk a little bit about some of the mindset struggles that you've encountered in your journey because, you know, the thing we it's not always talked about. You know, everyone looks at Instagram. Oh, I wanna touch on that too. We'll come back to Instagram. But it Instagram, everything looks so shiny and beautiful, and it's not really talked about some of the struggles. So what would you say is, like, one of your biggest mindset hurdles you've crossed since you've started this journey?

Shannon Mattern [00:20:28]:
Oh my gosh. There are so many, but the one that just really popped into my mind when you asked me that was, like, the it's all on me. And there's this, like, version of me that is, like, will not rely on anybody else for anything. And and this, like, my this, like, mind trash thing that it's all on me. I'm responsible for all of it sounds, like, it's all on me. It doesn't sound great, but, like, I can spin it in my mind of, like, oh, I'm superwoman. I can do anything. I can figure anything out, you know, and it keeps me it keeps me small.

Shannon Mattern [00:21:15]:
Like, it sounds really powerful, but it keeps me small because it keeps me from seeking outside, advice, perspectives, help. And when, like, I can't see all my own stuff. Like, I, you know, I have blind spots. I I get stuck. I reach plateaus. I have errors in my thinking. I have mind trash. And when I think it's all on me, I don't put myself in containers, groups, relationships that are going to and then and then allow myself to even ask for help or say I'm struggling to even have someone say, hey.

Shannon Mattern [00:22:01]:
Like, here's where I think this might be going wrong for you, or here's an opportunity that I see for you. And so while it's all on me and I'm, like, so resilient and I can handle anything and I can figure anything out, like, I can only get so far with that. And I think that that's, like, the one that jumps out at me as, like, something that I will always be continually working on.

Laura Kåmark [00:22:28]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I know one of the things that really changed my business was when I started investing in coaching, not just courses, but actually in coaching programs, coaching and mentorship programs. And that was huge for me because the they're big investments, but the support that you get and someone an outside perspective looking in and giving you really actionable advice has been just huge for my business in the past, you know, 5 years. So it's so important, I think, for us to take the time to find the right people to work with that really can see our business and people we look up to, people who we want to our business to go the direction their business is going.

Shannon Mattern [00:23:12]:
Yeah. And I think, you know, there's such a huge difference between, like, a course and a self study thing and, here's, like, how to implement this thing, and actually having someone say, you know, here's I I I gave you this the strategy. I see how you tried to implement it, but you, like, did x, y, and z or whatever. And whenever that's hap like, whenever I've gotten actual feedback, guidance, and direction from an actual, like, human and not myself from watching videos or, reading something or doing worksheets or whatever. It's it's all of the difference in the world, and I think too that whole it's all on me thing would have me choose the self study option over the coach who's just gonna, like, look and be, like, here are here's what you can do differently. And it's a I think it's a self protection thing too because you open yourself up to being vulnerable to receive feedback that maybe you're like that's gonna, like, hurt your ego or whatever, or you are like, I'm gonna put money on the line, and what are people gonna think of me if or what you know, people close to me, aka my husband, what's he going to think if I spend money on this and it doesn't work out, and now I've harmed us and harmed our family? So I you know? And you can tie all of that behavior back to, like, this one core thought or belief of it's all on me. And so when you look at those things of, like, oh, like, if you could figure out what your thing is that you think that just gets in your way all over the place in, like, little different ways and and become aware of it and notice when it's popping up and shifting it, it makes the biggest difference, and you can't do it through your own like, from your own mind. Right? Like, you can't see your own stuff.

Shannon Mattern [00:25:23]:
I can't see my own stuff.

Laura Kåmark [00:25:26]:
I know for me for a long time, it was I really struggled showing up and being visible, and I had this huge block with emailing my list. And I worked with Alicia Saint Germain, who's been on the podcast, who is one of your closest friends, who you introduced into my world, and she helped me as a mindset coach. She helped work through this whole visibility thing, and now I have a podcast.

Shannon Mattern [00:25:48]:
Yeah. And it's, she she's like a guest coach in our program, and we use her process of uncovering what those things are, in our coaching to be able to get to the core of, like you know, they say, like, what's the root? Like, what is that root belief that, just shows up in so many ways that when you you can't, like, you can't ever I don't know that you can ever get rid of it. I think it's always there, But I think when you're aware of it, it has a lot less power and you can make different choices, and it's not just, like, running the show for you, constantly. And and, yeah, like, Alicia is and she's incredible.

Laura Kåmark [00:26:34]:
That just what you were saying popped into my head, a quote from which I'm gonna butcher it, but it was an we'll go with idea overquote from Big Magic by Liz Gilbert where she talked about fear. You can come along for the ride. You cannot sit in the front seat. You better get in the back, but fear will be with you because you can't get rid of fear, but you can learn how to work through the fear and keep moving forward.

Shannon Mattern [00:26:55]:
Yeah. And I think the best way to do that that I found for myself is to let other people know that I'm scared and ask ask them to be there for me in in whatever way they way they can. You know?

Laura Kåmark [00:27:11]:
Oh, so good. I wanna talk a little bit about how you market your business. In this online world that we live in where there's all these different ideas of being in all the different social media platforms, something that's I've always been really impressed with is there is one form of marketing that you've always really held on strong to, and kind of been able to put the blinders on and avoid some of the other noise. So can we talk about that a little bit?

Shannon Mattern [00:27:38]:
Yeah. Sure. Like, if you go and look at my Instagram, you'll be like, this person is not legit. If that's if that's a way you measure legitimacy is by looking at other businesses' Instagrams and how much they post and how many followers they have, you'll go look at mine and be like, yeah. She's not legit. But that's not where I spend any time because it just doesn't feel easy and natural to me. But what does is meeting other really cool people who serve my audience in an adjacent way or a different way or maybe even in the exact same way and collaborating with them, building a relationship with them, and, seeing I always, like, I always go first in asking, like, how can I, how can I support you, and, you know, how can I promote you? How can we collaborate together? How can I serve your audience? And then usually, there's some, like, reciprocity that happens once you build like, I I just go first. I go first to find the people, intentionally meet them, intentionally reach out, intentionally build the relationship, figure out how I can help them, offer to help them, and then usually and help them could be a podcast interview.

Shannon Mattern [00:28:58]:
It could be there's so many different ways. And then, usually, they're like, this was awesome. How can I support you? And I'm very specific about how they can support me, and then, it leads to, like, really cool relationships and fun things and interesting conversations, and and it's platform agnostic. I think that's what I love the most about it is that, like, regardless of what the next hot thing is, like, just getting to know a person is always going to be, I think, always gonna be available. I shouldn't say that, but I think it will be.

Laura Kåmark [00:29:41]:
So start having robots come on the podcast.

Shannon Mattern [00:29:45]:
Who knows what's gonna happen? But I also kinda think in in, like you know, I have I use chat gpt. I love it. I think it's an incredible tool. It helps me, when I get writer's block and just different things, but I just don't see I think it makes, like, real conversations and interactions, like, all the more interesting and valuable.

Laura Kåmark [00:30:11]:
I think so too. What other AI tools are you using and finding and loving?

Shannon Mattern [00:30:16]:
So I just started playing with Cast Magic. Awesome. I think I heard of it from your friend, Dara, Dara Sklar. Mhmm. I think. Maybe it was someone else. It might not have been her. But, yeah.

Shannon Mattern [00:30:34]:
So when I record a podcast episode, I just drop the audio file in there, and it generates all of the content I need to promote it. I had tried to create my own GPT to do that for me, And my GPT did a pretty good job, but not nearly as good of a job as Cast Magic, is is doing. So I think I'm gonna abandon my own creation for, for cast magic, but, I mean, what a huge, huge time saver. And then we're exploring, like, some other cool ways to use AI to help with, like we haven't quite gotten there yet, but I'm really excited to, like, test it out. Like, we teach a specific way to, like, package price and position offers. And I'm like, what if we could have a GPT that, like, created that for our students? Because it's probably the most time intensive asset that they create inside of our program. So we're looking at, like, how can we leverage AI to speed things up for our students. But, yeah, I mean, I think Cast Magic's, like, the biggest one for me.

Shannon Mattern [00:31:48]:
Or, like, chat gbt. Like, give me 10 subject lines for this email that are gonna get people to open that are fun and, you know, whatever so I don't have to try to think of

Laura Kåmark [00:31:59]:
them. I found Cast Magic, couple of years ago, I think, on an AppSumo deal, and someone else had I think it was Jackie Money. She's been on the podcast as well. I'll link her below in the show notes. She's fun. Jackie, I think, was the one that told me about it, and so I went and got it. And I am so excited with the direction it's gone because they've added so many more features since I first got it when it was first really just for podcasting, and now you can upload all sorts of other recorded recordings to it as well. It doesn't just meant for podcasting.

Laura Kåmark [00:32:30]:
And I use it for my transcripts. That was the main reason I got it because I needed a transcripting tool, and I didn't Descript just for some reason, Descript didn't work in for my brain. So Yeah. It's magic for sure.

Shannon Mattern [00:32:45]:
I was using, like, so many different things because there's a lot of moving parts to producing a podcast, and I was just using a lot of different tools and yeah. So I'm I'm definitely, like, late to you you always find all the deals. Like, you find the tools early. You find the deals. You're, like, always a early adopter. I love it. I'm, like, late to the game. I'm like, this is I wish I would have known about this 2 years ago when I, when I launched my podcast.

Laura Kåmark [00:33:15]:
Right. That's funny. I don't think of myself that way, but you're right. I do. I like finding deals on things. And even though I'm still like, I don't use chat GPT as much as I probably could, I've spent a lot of time trying to create custom GPTs, and then things change and update. And I'm like, oh, it just I'm like, I feel like I just spent a week working on this, and I'm not still not getting I could've spent that time doing something else.

Shannon Mattern [00:33:39]:
Yeah. I I feel like, I it's a skill that I I don't I don't know. I think it's a skill I can develop. I know people who are, like, really, really good at just getting chat gpt to do what they want, want it to do. And I'm like, maybe I should just hire those people instead of trying to do it myself.

Laura Kåmark [00:34:02]:
I I have found a lot of my friends who are really, really good at conversing back and forth with chat JPT are the former teachers who are now entrepreneurs.

Shannon Mattern [00:34:13]:
Interesting.

Laura Kåmark [00:34:14]:
And so and my understanding from when I've quiz them on this and why they're so good is because when they get feed as teachers, they would have to give feedback in a constructive way that was also so they'd know how to give it feedback. I'm like, I don't know how to give this thing feedback. Just make it better. This is horrible. But I'm

Shannon Mattern [00:34:32]:
like, give me 5 more and make them funny. Like but it yeah. And then I'm like, you just gave me 5 more of the same kind of thing. Yeah. I think I I think you're onto something because I think teachers must have that skill and probably don't even realize that, like, that's why they are chat gpt whispers.

Laura Kåmark [00:34:52]:
Exactly. Oh my goodness. We are getting close to our time, which is crazy because that just flew by, and I could talk to you all day long. I do have one question that I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, and that is, what is one piece of advice you would give someone when they are growing and scaling their business that would help them be bolder, be louder, and make waves?

Shannon Mattern [00:35:15]:
Oh, that is such a good question. That would help them be bolder, be louder, and make waves. I would say that if you can make your marketing, your offers, your sales all about the client and how you can help them reach their goals and take that focus off of yourself, take that pressure off of yourself, I think it can help you show up in a bolder way. So I always say, like, marketing is not about you because I think one of the things that, like, business owners kinda get stuck in is, like, you know, making sure that they are presenting themselves in a certain way. And it's like, if if you weren't even thinking about how you were presenting yourself and you were thinking about who you were serving and how you could best serve them and what they needed to to know to make the decision for themselves one way or the other, I think it would, like, help you just say what you wanted to say so much easier. And, you know, it's a bold move to tell somebody like, yeah. I think I can help you. I would love to help you.

Shannon Mattern [00:36:38]:
Here's exactly how I can help you. Would you like to work together? And you didn't even have to say anything about you or how you learned or how you know, all of the things that hold us back and make us think we're not good enough. So, yeah, that's what I would say.

Laura Kåmark [00:36:53]:
I love that so much, and I think that's fantastic advice. Shannon, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Can you tell our listeners where they can come find you, hang out with you, learn more about you and your programs?

Shannon Mattern [00:37:05]:
Yeah. Webdesigneracademy.com is the best place to find me. If you are a web designer, we have a free course, to help you stop undercharging and overdelivering. You can go to webdesigneracademy.comforward/freecourse. If you wanna learn more about our next level mastermind, you can just go to web designer academy forward slash next dash level dash mastermind. I need a better URL for that, but for now, that's what it is. And then our podcast is the profitable web designer. You can find that anywhere you listen to podcasts, and you can follow me on Instagram at profitable web designer.

Shannon Mattern [00:37:45]:
If you DM me, I will respond, but, I wouldn't expect to see tons of content there anytime

Laura Kåmark [00:37:54]:
soon. Wonderful. I will link all that up in the show notes. Thank you so much. This was such a fun conversation.

Shannon Mattern [00:38:00]:
Thank you, Laura, so much for having me.

Laura Kåmark [00:38:03]:
Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode. Be sure to check out the show notes at laurakamark.com/podcast. And if you're ready to get more sales without more work, save time so you can focus on the work that you do love, and automate and simplify the back end of your business, Grab my free resource, how to get more sales from your email list on autopilot. Head on over to laurakamark.com/email. And don't forget to follow the show and leave a review in your favorite podcast app. It helps get this show in front of other business owners who want to grow and scale with ease. Thanks again for listening. I'll see you in the next episode.

Laura Kåmark [00:38:45]:
Bye now.